mscriv
Apr 6, 12:49 PM
Worth quoting, given the back-and-forth that's gone on since this was originally posted.
Thank you sir. I'm glad you enjoyed the post and appreciate the compliment. :)
No woman was ever raped because of the kind of clothes she was wearing. Women are raped because people (almost exclusively men) choose to rape them.
While it is true that people can put themselves at a higher risk through certain activities, for a politician to blame a young girl for her own rape is absolutely disgusting. It's also nauseating and ignorant for politicians to suggest modest dress as a way to prevent rape. Such thinking is completely backward.
I agree with the notion that people should try to take steps to avoid risk, and that people can greatly reduce personal risk by making safer choices.
But this nugget of wisdom does not really touch on the substance of the issue arising in the OP, to wit - how much responsiblity does a rape victim carry? Or, to turn the question around, how much of the rape is not the rapist's fault?
Here's the thing. A woman's choice in dress or action does not mean she is to "blame" for being victimized, but we can not deny that her choice in dress or behavior can be a factor in her chances of being targeted.
As far as the politician's comments, let's not forget that multiple articles have been written about her quote and she claims to have been misquoted. Regardless of our own personal political views, we must admit that people do get misquoted. Additionally, none of us are above making a error in judgement with our words. Sometimes things don't come out as we intend them or they sound different when they come out of our mouths as opposed to how it sounded in our heads.
She responded to an email written to her by a blogger (http://www.timesofmalta.com/blogs/view/20110318/tanja-cilia/unjust-justice)with this:
Thank you for your e-mail. You may want to read the article that appeared in the New York Times. When I read the article my heart went out to the little girl and I was angry that she was brutally assaulted. I was angry that nobody protected her and that she was even allowed to leave with an older boy. In my opinion an 11 year old girl is still a child and as such shouldn't be expected to understand that certain actions or attire are not appropriate for her. I did not indicate that she was raped because she was wearing inappropriate attire. What I did say (which was not reported) was that if her parents don't protect her then all that's left is the school.
Additionally, the writer who wrote the story quoted by the OP has written two follow up stories on the matter. In the most recent one he states (http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.com/juice/2011/03/11_year_olds_dressed_like_pros.php#):
But, look -- no matter where Kathleen Passidomo exists on the feminist spectrum, whether she's a closet burqa-wearer or the secret owner of a lucrative chain of abortion clinics -- the fact is, Kathleen Passidomo probably doesn't think this 11-year-old deserved to be gang-raped. How do we know? Because Kathleen Passidomo is a human being, and human beings do not generally feel that justice has been served when children are tortured and brutalized. However regrettable her phrasing, what Passidomo was trying to express is an obvious if unpopular truth: that although a child has every right to safety in any environment she chooses to enter, that right will not be equally protected by all individuals in all environments.
* bold emphasis mine
It's also, by the way, fallacious to assume that only young, attractive and/or scantily-clad women are raped.
Great point. My post was intended to speak on the connection between personal responsibility and possible victimization. There is often a correlation between these variables. My comments in that post and in this one are not directed solely at this one sad case, but towards all types of victimization. If we focus on the topic of rape specifically there are a variety of types of rapes each carrying their own specific factors.
If your interested my thoughts on post 50 is that it fundamentally misses the point.
Everyone understands that we live in a world which contains certain dangers which can be mitigated by changing our behaviors.
That isn't the point of this conversation, were all talking about BLAMING the victim in this case. Just because a victim makes a bad decision does not remove their reasonable expectation of safety.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think your view is very short sighted and continues to be rooted in a morality vacuum as opposed to reality. Sure, we can all agree that the ideal is every person, everywhere, regardless of circumstances should be safe, but the fact of the matter is that we aren't.
No one is arguing that victims deserve what happens to them or that perpetrators should be any less to blame for the actions they take. However, we must learn to accept that a variety of factors are involved and that even victims can bear a measure of responsibility in putting themselves in situations where they are more likely to be victimized.
Like I said above there are a variety of types of rape. Let's take the broad category of date rape as an example. The female that chooses to dress and carry herself in a suggestive manner might be sending signals that she does not intend to send and in doing so is making herself more of a target. Add alcohol to the mix and risks go way up. Does this mean the predator who chooses to take advantage in this situation is any less culpable, of course not, but to ignore the risk factors is like burying your head in the sand. Young women need to be taught about risk factors and learn how certain choices can either increase or minimize risk.
As I have suggested, we cannot really know the answers to these questions without first interviewing (or obtaining transcripts of interviews of) rapists. Most of us on this forum are not rapists (I hope), so making broad inferences on what goes through such a monster's mind is rather pointless.
Another great point. Guess what, in my experience as a therapist I've worked with rapists and abusers directly. I've done the interviews and talked with these indivduals about "what goes through [their] mind".
Continuing the line of reasoning I started in my answer to AP_piano295, one young man who had "date raped" more than one female explained to me that at college parties he would target the girls who dressed and acted provocatively in addition to drinking heavily. In his words, "you know, the party girls" His reasoning was that these girls were easy marks and in most cases were less likely to report anything because they would rationalize the experience, if they remembered it, as "having gotten a little out of control or having drank too much" as opposed to having been victimized or raped.
You see, rape is not always about power. Sometimes it is, but at other times it's about abuse, pain, fear, rage, or just plain sexual desire/conquest.
One young male offender I worked with was in the system for sexually molesting his younger brother. He was a victim of abuse himself and his motivation for abusing his brother was jealously and anger. He felt his parents loved the younger brother more because he wasn't "damaged" and thus he acted out so his brother would be "just like him".
I agree, but there's a vast difference between trying to 'minimize risk' and the post below:
...If a man sees a woman with a low top, lots of cleavage showing, high skirts and heels, then he will view her as trash.....
Which acts as a kind of justification.
Yes and no. While based on my own personal morals/ethics I agree with you that such a line of thinking is ridiculous, I must keep in mind that there are people that do think this way. And, they will use whatever rationalization it takes to both motivate and justify their judgements or actions. In the case of a predator the kind of thinking above could be the initial thought that starts a chain of events which ultimately results in an attack of some kind.
In this specific gang rape case the victim is a child and thus there is limited capacity for personal responsibility. However, there are a variety of potential factors that ultimately contributed to what occurred: lack of parental supervision, negative peer involvement, possible previous sexually inappropriate behavior, socioeconomic conditions, etc. etc. I don't know the specifics and thus these are just generalizations, but regardless, the perpetrators are solely responsible for their actions and should be held responsible to the fullest extent of the law.
Please understand, I'm not talking about morals, ideals, and values here (what I've previously referred to as the morality vacuum). I'm talking about understanding the link between personal responsibility and potential victimization. Simply put, while our choices do not make us responsible for any victimization that may befall us, we must recognize that our actions can contribute to the chances of us being targeted for victimization.
I apologize for the long post, but I wanted to touch on the many comments that had been made and attempt to better explain my position. :)
Thank you sir. I'm glad you enjoyed the post and appreciate the compliment. :)
No woman was ever raped because of the kind of clothes she was wearing. Women are raped because people (almost exclusively men) choose to rape them.
While it is true that people can put themselves at a higher risk through certain activities, for a politician to blame a young girl for her own rape is absolutely disgusting. It's also nauseating and ignorant for politicians to suggest modest dress as a way to prevent rape. Such thinking is completely backward.
I agree with the notion that people should try to take steps to avoid risk, and that people can greatly reduce personal risk by making safer choices.
But this nugget of wisdom does not really touch on the substance of the issue arising in the OP, to wit - how much responsiblity does a rape victim carry? Or, to turn the question around, how much of the rape is not the rapist's fault?
Here's the thing. A woman's choice in dress or action does not mean she is to "blame" for being victimized, but we can not deny that her choice in dress or behavior can be a factor in her chances of being targeted.
As far as the politician's comments, let's not forget that multiple articles have been written about her quote and she claims to have been misquoted. Regardless of our own personal political views, we must admit that people do get misquoted. Additionally, none of us are above making a error in judgement with our words. Sometimes things don't come out as we intend them or they sound different when they come out of our mouths as opposed to how it sounded in our heads.
She responded to an email written to her by a blogger (http://www.timesofmalta.com/blogs/view/20110318/tanja-cilia/unjust-justice)with this:
Thank you for your e-mail. You may want to read the article that appeared in the New York Times. When I read the article my heart went out to the little girl and I was angry that she was brutally assaulted. I was angry that nobody protected her and that she was even allowed to leave with an older boy. In my opinion an 11 year old girl is still a child and as such shouldn't be expected to understand that certain actions or attire are not appropriate for her. I did not indicate that she was raped because she was wearing inappropriate attire. What I did say (which was not reported) was that if her parents don't protect her then all that's left is the school.
Additionally, the writer who wrote the story quoted by the OP has written two follow up stories on the matter. In the most recent one he states (http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.com/juice/2011/03/11_year_olds_dressed_like_pros.php#):
But, look -- no matter where Kathleen Passidomo exists on the feminist spectrum, whether she's a closet burqa-wearer or the secret owner of a lucrative chain of abortion clinics -- the fact is, Kathleen Passidomo probably doesn't think this 11-year-old deserved to be gang-raped. How do we know? Because Kathleen Passidomo is a human being, and human beings do not generally feel that justice has been served when children are tortured and brutalized. However regrettable her phrasing, what Passidomo was trying to express is an obvious if unpopular truth: that although a child has every right to safety in any environment she chooses to enter, that right will not be equally protected by all individuals in all environments.
* bold emphasis mine
It's also, by the way, fallacious to assume that only young, attractive and/or scantily-clad women are raped.
Great point. My post was intended to speak on the connection between personal responsibility and possible victimization. There is often a correlation between these variables. My comments in that post and in this one are not directed solely at this one sad case, but towards all types of victimization. If we focus on the topic of rape specifically there are a variety of types of rapes each carrying their own specific factors.
If your interested my thoughts on post 50 is that it fundamentally misses the point.
Everyone understands that we live in a world which contains certain dangers which can be mitigated by changing our behaviors.
That isn't the point of this conversation, were all talking about BLAMING the victim in this case. Just because a victim makes a bad decision does not remove their reasonable expectation of safety.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think your view is very short sighted and continues to be rooted in a morality vacuum as opposed to reality. Sure, we can all agree that the ideal is every person, everywhere, regardless of circumstances should be safe, but the fact of the matter is that we aren't.
No one is arguing that victims deserve what happens to them or that perpetrators should be any less to blame for the actions they take. However, we must learn to accept that a variety of factors are involved and that even victims can bear a measure of responsibility in putting themselves in situations where they are more likely to be victimized.
Like I said above there are a variety of types of rape. Let's take the broad category of date rape as an example. The female that chooses to dress and carry herself in a suggestive manner might be sending signals that she does not intend to send and in doing so is making herself more of a target. Add alcohol to the mix and risks go way up. Does this mean the predator who chooses to take advantage in this situation is any less culpable, of course not, but to ignore the risk factors is like burying your head in the sand. Young women need to be taught about risk factors and learn how certain choices can either increase or minimize risk.
As I have suggested, we cannot really know the answers to these questions without first interviewing (or obtaining transcripts of interviews of) rapists. Most of us on this forum are not rapists (I hope), so making broad inferences on what goes through such a monster's mind is rather pointless.
Another great point. Guess what, in my experience as a therapist I've worked with rapists and abusers directly. I've done the interviews and talked with these indivduals about "what goes through [their] mind".
Continuing the line of reasoning I started in my answer to AP_piano295, one young man who had "date raped" more than one female explained to me that at college parties he would target the girls who dressed and acted provocatively in addition to drinking heavily. In his words, "you know, the party girls" His reasoning was that these girls were easy marks and in most cases were less likely to report anything because they would rationalize the experience, if they remembered it, as "having gotten a little out of control or having drank too much" as opposed to having been victimized or raped.
You see, rape is not always about power. Sometimes it is, but at other times it's about abuse, pain, fear, rage, or just plain sexual desire/conquest.
One young male offender I worked with was in the system for sexually molesting his younger brother. He was a victim of abuse himself and his motivation for abusing his brother was jealously and anger. He felt his parents loved the younger brother more because he wasn't "damaged" and thus he acted out so his brother would be "just like him".
I agree, but there's a vast difference between trying to 'minimize risk' and the post below:
...If a man sees a woman with a low top, lots of cleavage showing, high skirts and heels, then he will view her as trash.....
Which acts as a kind of justification.
Yes and no. While based on my own personal morals/ethics I agree with you that such a line of thinking is ridiculous, I must keep in mind that there are people that do think this way. And, they will use whatever rationalization it takes to both motivate and justify their judgements or actions. In the case of a predator the kind of thinking above could be the initial thought that starts a chain of events which ultimately results in an attack of some kind.
In this specific gang rape case the victim is a child and thus there is limited capacity for personal responsibility. However, there are a variety of potential factors that ultimately contributed to what occurred: lack of parental supervision, negative peer involvement, possible previous sexually inappropriate behavior, socioeconomic conditions, etc. etc. I don't know the specifics and thus these are just generalizations, but regardless, the perpetrators are solely responsible for their actions and should be held responsible to the fullest extent of the law.
Please understand, I'm not talking about morals, ideals, and values here (what I've previously referred to as the morality vacuum). I'm talking about understanding the link between personal responsibility and potential victimization. Simply put, while our choices do not make us responsible for any victimization that may befall us, we must recognize that our actions can contribute to the chances of us being targeted for victimization.
I apologize for the long post, but I wanted to touch on the many comments that had been made and attempt to better explain my position. :)
superbovine
Dec 16, 01:43 AM
I think a more interesting font would help. Sould be gold n' sparkly! Though size constraints are a problem.
i'll try again tomorrow with your advice.
i'll try again tomorrow with your advice.
UKBorgs
Aug 16, 06:34 AM
Changed all my geektool crap around.
Love the look there. Any chance you could direct me atleast on how to achieve that look, geektool and all, please? Or somewhere that I may get to grips with this?
Thanks.
Love the look there. Any chance you could direct me atleast on how to achieve that look, geektool and all, please? Or somewhere that I may get to grips with this?
Thanks.
Hisdem
Oct 10, 09:13 AM
Is there a simple way to make the menubar black?
more...
mutantteenager
Nov 12, 11:39 AM
Apple can string on the consumer market, holding back features which their competitors have had for years and take for granted, and when they finally add them, they're already out of date. Sprinkle on some 'magic' and consumers eat it up.
The Professional market use their tools to make money and drive their workflow. If a product/solution like FCS becomes uncompetitive, the customer will move on.
Apple probably know that they can't compete in this space, at least profitably. Both Shake and Xserve are gone. The Macpro on price/performance is really poor value. And whilst FCS is brilliant value, it never really leaps ahead in terms of added features or optimisation.
It's possible that Apple in 5 years time will be a purely consumer electronics company, with no 'computers' in the traditional sense in it's line up. If this bears out, Pro Applications and Hardware, don't really figure into that reality.
The Professional market use their tools to make money and drive their workflow. If a product/solution like FCS becomes uncompetitive, the customer will move on.
Apple probably know that they can't compete in this space, at least profitably. Both Shake and Xserve are gone. The Macpro on price/performance is really poor value. And whilst FCS is brilliant value, it never really leaps ahead in terms of added features or optimisation.
It's possible that Apple in 5 years time will be a purely consumer electronics company, with no 'computers' in the traditional sense in it's line up. If this bears out, Pro Applications and Hardware, don't really figure into that reality.
slb
Oct 5, 05:53 PM
This is my first post. It takes a lot for me to stop being a lurker, but the idea that any user can resize a textarea on a site I design, dynamically redrawing the page, is among the dumbest ideas I've ever heard. This will break valid page layouts in new and unheard of ways. Designers make form elements a size and shape for a reason.
I look forward to finding a way using JavaScript to disable that feature the day that browser is released.
On the contrary, resizeable textareas are part of the CSS3 standard; Safari 3.0 will simply be the first mainstream browser to implement it. Once you try it, I promise you will not want to go back. It's really a non-issue, and I'm surprised anybody's complaining about it to the point they would disable this end-user feature using JavaScript. I'll just disable JavaScript on your site, then, buddy.
I look forward to finding a way using JavaScript to disable that feature the day that browser is released.
On the contrary, resizeable textareas are part of the CSS3 standard; Safari 3.0 will simply be the first mainstream browser to implement it. Once you try it, I promise you will not want to go back. It's really a non-issue, and I'm surprised anybody's complaining about it to the point they would disable this end-user feature using JavaScript. I'll just disable JavaScript on your site, then, buddy.
more...
Deefuzz
Dec 10, 04:18 PM
check this out ;)
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=871944
Where the heck has that been hiding? I guess that's what I get for being gone for so long.
Thanks for the link.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=871944
Where the heck has that been hiding? I guess that's what I get for being gone for so long.
Thanks for the link.
Arkious
May 5, 04:00 AM
that would be interesting, however the camera on the imac is great anyways :-)
more...
JanefromBR
May 1, 04:25 PM
I have made a flyer in Pages and one of the text box little "corner squares" will not disappear. Actually, its the bottom center square that has the little plus sign in it. Can anyone tell me how to remove it or make it disappear?
Jane
Jane
Hisdem
Apr 19, 05:29 PM
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5066/5626395664_42cf4f19aa_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/maxumphoto/5626395664/)
Wild Snake (http://www.flickr.com/photos/maxumphoto/5626395664/) by Hisdem (http://www.flickr.com/people/maxumphoto/), on Flickr
Wild Snake (http://www.flickr.com/photos/maxumphoto/5626395664/) by Hisdem (http://www.flickr.com/people/maxumphoto/), on Flickr
more...
Marlinark
Dec 2, 05:32 PM
Hey,
Has anyone heard of a mac version of PTE, I used to have a windows computer and would use PTE everyday to download Power tabs from ultimate-guitar.com however recently our family got a mac and I can't get it to work. Is there any alternative besides VMware to run this? I have had to get my tabs from music downloads (http://http://www.emusic.com/).
Has anyone heard of a mac version of PTE, I used to have a windows computer and would use PTE everyday to download Power tabs from ultimate-guitar.com however recently our family got a mac and I can't get it to work. Is there any alternative besides VMware to run this? I have had to get my tabs from music downloads (http://http://www.emusic.com/).
Small White Car
Apr 6, 12:01 PM
i'm not to keen on this whole cloud computing concept that is floating around at the moment. Anyone else have doubts?
"Floting around at the moment?" Forget it, it's come and gone and is here to stay.
Most people don't call it a 'cloud,' but an amazing number of people pretty much just use Facebook as their only photo-storage facility. Forget the fact that many of them become down-rezzed when doing so...and that's before you get into conversations about how safe the data is and how you can access it. Those kind of thoughts don't even enter most people's minds.
I've heard from so many people who have lost entire computer drives and kind of laugh it off 'cause their photos are on Facebook and their music is on their iPod.
You and I may see the downsides to cloud computing compared to what we do now, but for these people a better cloud-computing-workflow from a company like Apple would actually be a huge step UP.
"Floting around at the moment?" Forget it, it's come and gone and is here to stay.
Most people don't call it a 'cloud,' but an amazing number of people pretty much just use Facebook as their only photo-storage facility. Forget the fact that many of them become down-rezzed when doing so...and that's before you get into conversations about how safe the data is and how you can access it. Those kind of thoughts don't even enter most people's minds.
I've heard from so many people who have lost entire computer drives and kind of laugh it off 'cause their photos are on Facebook and their music is on their iPod.
You and I may see the downsides to cloud computing compared to what we do now, but for these people a better cloud-computing-workflow from a company like Apple would actually be a huge step UP.
more...
AP_piano295
May 4, 06:57 PM
The 9/11 Commission found "no credible evidence" that Erwa had ever made such an offer.
ible verses tattoos. ible
eric_n_dfw
Apr 7, 06:54 PM
My kids (ages 9 and 4) and I have been playing with some of the arcade games and the general consensus so far:
more...
ible verse tattoos.
Religious Scripture Tattoos
more...
Italian ible Verse
ible verse tattoo.
without Bible verse.
more...
Rayday
Mar 25, 09:52 PM
Ifixit can be your friend. Check it out.
http://www.ifixit.com/Device/iPod_Nano_2nd_Generation
http://www.ifixit.com/Device/iPod_Nano_2nd_Generation
thepf
Feb 23, 03:43 PM
I recently got a Pro with Logic and Garageband to do a bit of basic music production in my spare time. I've started from scratch, so I've been experimenting with garageband, and I was wondering how you can directly transfer Loops to the Keyboard, as in having up side by side, as I cant seem to find this.
more...
MacBytes
Sep 13, 04:05 PM
http://www.macbytes.com/images/bytessig.gif (http://www.macbytes.com)
Category: Photos
Link: iPad cutting board (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20100913170554)
Description:: none
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
Approved by Mudbug
Category: Photos
Link: iPad cutting board (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20100913170554)
Description:: none
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
Approved by Mudbug
Jalexster
Feb 14, 05:42 AM
:D I'm still me, maybe a bit better behaved (honest Mr. Anderson! ;)), but still me...
I hope so...
I hope so...
SFVCyclone
Nov 15, 01:13 PM
Anyone know how much Blu ray RW disc will cost here in the states?
Dr. Dastardly
Sep 24, 06:50 PM
At this point I would tell him to just be safe and promise to use a condom.
You may not be happy with it but in the end he is going to go through with it anyway. Just telling him to be safe is the best you can do at this point.
If she was sleeping at your place I would to what my parents told us when I was living there. They said you can sleep together but please try not to have sex. Even though they both knew we were sexually active. We still did every once in a while but seldom and kept it very low key as to "not get caught".
Later when I was older I asked them about it and told them we did (this is years later and my parents are really cool). They told me the figured we would anyway. They just said it so that we wouldn't make it obvious. I believe their words contained the phrase "ignorance is bliss".
You may not be happy with it but in the end he is going to go through with it anyway. Just telling him to be safe is the best you can do at this point.
If she was sleeping at your place I would to what my parents told us when I was living there. They said you can sleep together but please try not to have sex. Even though they both knew we were sexually active. We still did every once in a while but seldom and kept it very low key as to "not get caught".
Later when I was older I asked them about it and told them we did (this is years later and my parents are really cool). They told me the figured we would anyway. They just said it so that we wouldn't make it obvious. I believe their words contained the phrase "ignorance is bliss".
MacBytes
Aug 19, 02:24 PM
Category: Mac Websites
Link: Creative Mac users invited to compete for free domain and site hosting (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20040819152438)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
Approved by Mudbug
Link: Creative Mac users invited to compete for free domain and site hosting (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20040819152438)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
Approved by Mudbug
anthdci
Apr 13, 09:34 AM
I know rumors aren't good to use, but I'm sure there were pre-production parts for the iPhone4 showing up by this time last year, maybe the fact that there isn't gives more credibility to the next version coming later.
Les Kern
Mar 22, 08:21 PM
Drop him now, and quit whoring yourself. He will continue to abuse you for pennies because that's how he flies, and you're letting him.
Check around at what other degreed or professional designers charge.
You are too low by a factor of a number I might run out of zeroes writing down.
I am brutally honest because i was there.
Check around at what other degreed or professional designers charge.
You are too low by a factor of a number I might run out of zeroes writing down.
I am brutally honest because i was there.
rien333
Dec 12, 07:03 AM
Decided to do some geektooling with my good old power mac, I'm pretty satisfied with the result:
http://i54.tinypic.com/33yovw3.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/33yovw3.jpg
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